Bishop Nazir-Ali is lightening rod of hatred for this movement. Poor bloke. Naturally, for me to even show sympathy with him makes me as 'bad' as him. There's nothing I can do about that. These are strange, unpleasant and rather hateful times we live in. I wonder how long we can all continue in such shrill tones.
The reality about homosexuality is uncomfortable for both sides of the debate. Homosexuality is now 'no big deal' in the media. Celebrities and politicians are out in the open. And the public media-debate appears to be broadly over. So Nicky Campbell can ask the same question several times because he is sure he is on the side of moral correctness.
And yet, for a mixture of good and bad reasons, many people in Britian have a problem with homosexuality. Many don't quite know why - and would admit that it's prejudice. Most don't want to see homosexuals come to physical harm or suffer because of their sexuality. Some do - and that's bad, obviously. It requires no legislation, however, since its illegal to beat someone up whether they white, black, straight, homosexual or a Millwall fan.
But some have a problem with homosexuality and know exactly why - because of what the Bible says. (And Muslims pretty sure about it too) Here's the real problem for the national debate and Tatchell and co - Nazir-Ali and people like him are not going to change their mind. Nazir-Ali is convinced that homosexuality is wrong. Tatchell is convinced that Nazir-Ali is wrong. I don't think Nazir-Ali is proposing homosexuality be made illegal, but Tatchell, like many others, would like to see Nazir-Ali silenced or his views outlawed. And that's the real problem.
So George Pitcher writes in the Telegraph:
But [Nazir-Ali's] comments in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph, which he is expected to repeat today, that homosexuals should "repent and be changed" cannot pass unchallenged. Or rather, they should not go challenged only by homosexual rights campaigners, such as Peter Tatchell, who you would expect to be somewhat antipathetic to the expressed view.
However, a comment left by someone beneath that article observes rather shrewdly:
Pitcher, in fact, is having the debate he asks for in his last paragraph: but in fact he does not want debate. He wants the Bishop to shut up, and so do the broad swathes. That would be so much more comfortable. It has always been so, and that is why Socrates was poisoned and St Paul was beheaded.
The problem in this debate is that Tatchell and Pitcher are able to appeal to the likes of Harriet Harman to permanently silence - by force of law - one side of this debate. They may well succeed in the short term should Parliament lose its mind and pass thought-police legislation.
For an interesting article on the FCA itself and whether it's a good thing for Anglican Evangelicalism, Charles Raven has written some useful things here, mostly in response to Fulcrum's rejection of FCA, and allegations that FCA is determined to bring about schism. Raven writes:
Fulcrum is ultimately a distraction because it defines itself politically, as holding the centre ground. But preoccupation with this kind of ‘centre’ means that the gospel itself is no longer central since the Church’s chronic inability to go against the grain of the surrounding culture leads to the centre being pushed continually in a revisionist direction.
Read the rest of Charles Raven's thoughtful article here.
6 comments:
You write on specific violence and abuse against gay people "It requires no legislation, however, since its illegal to beat someone up whether they white, black, straight, homosexual or a Millwall fan." In so far as it goes you are correct. The point, however, is that many gay people are attacked for who they are, for how they look, for how they behave, and as such are MORE likely to be attacked as specific targets. (Likewise, with e.g. black people.) It is not just a case of any assault being 'random' The legislation takes this point into account and makes the point that where visible minorities are attacked then this will be taken as an added aggravated factor. That seems reasonable to me.
Sorry Alan - I don't agree. What's the difference if you're beaten up for being in a minority or having your purse stolen. It's unpleasant and traumatic, by why should one group of people be protected by 'aggravated' laws. Bodily harm is illegal. What this government loves to do and seeks to do is to see inside people's heads and find out how people think, and punish those who think the wrong things. I don't want to live in a country that does that.
James - Do you not think it is a little more complicated than you are letting on? It's not about looking into people's heads to see how they think, nor is it about controlling what they think. It is about the public manifestation of that thinking in terms of hateful language and violent actions. It is this juxtaposition that legislation, specifically protecting minorities, is addressing. Unless one is an extreme libetarian society recognises the need to 'set limits' of what can be said and how it can be said. Language can be used to created an environment in which certain minorities are considered 'legitimate' targets of hate and vilification. It is only a small step from that position to physical violence. The guys that murdered Stephen Lawrence spent their time together expressing their hatred of black people, and then went out and acted on it. Should they have been free, openly and in public, to have encouraged others to share their views? Society has said no. And where hate against minorities is shown to be a factor in violence, then that will be regarded as an aggravating factor. You say that you do not wish to live in a country that gives consideration to aggrevating factors such as this. I'm sorry to tell you that you already do live in such a country. Nor if the Conservatives wins the next election will this change. The only political party campagining against this legislation is I beleive the British National Party. Need I say more?
Alan, I know it's more complicated that it appears - but it's yet more complicated than you say it is.
You seem to think that making racist thoughts criminal will somehow make people play nicely, and that the state should knock heads together in getting us to share our toys. There are already laws about inciting people to violence - we do not need more. Violence is wrong - and punishable, and provable in court. Prejudice is deplorable, but not a crime against a state, surely?
Despite being an Evangelical Christian, I do believe in a libertarian society. I don't want the state to make people think 'nicely' or 'Christianly'. People can think what they want. I want the right to persuade them to think Christianly, even if such a view is to them unpalatable.
The BNP is a hateful angry bunch who aren't even very clever. They must be allowed to think their vile racist thoughts. After all, some people hate Biblical Christianity just as much. We must be far quicker to listen, prepared to ignore and be tolerant of views we dislike. Sadly, in the name of tolerance, our society is becoming grossly, hysterically intolerant. Please don't fan these flames even more.
James - My final comment. You wrote in response to my posting, "You seem to think that making racist thoughts criminal will somehow make people play nicely...." If you read carefully what I wrote, I was not saying that at all! What I was saying was that society has the right if it so chooses to control the PUBLIC manifestation/expression of those thoughts in so far as they seek to whip up hate and violence (PUBLIC being the operative word). That is something very different from what you interpret me as saying - can you not see that??? Thus it is wholly acceptable that in a reasoned calm and measured way Bishop Nazir-Ali should be free to express his views on e.g. homosexuality, but NOT if he says e.g. homosexuals should be driven from the streets and made invisible, that they should be attacked, that they are loathsome, or, as Abp Akinola has said, no better than beasts, thus dehumanising a whole section of society. (I could quote some far worse things I have heard.) Likewise, we allow the BNP party to exist and to campaign for its views - e.g. the repatriation of immigrants - but it does not have absolute freedom in how it expresses its views. (Think of Germany in the 1930's when the free expression of racist views was allowed.) It is this distinction and balance that the law is seeking to uphold and which all the mainstream parties support. If you think - as you say - this is 'hysterical' intolerance then that tells me more about you than me i'm sorry to say. Please read carefully what I have written. Best wishes to you. Alan
It doesn't look like we're going to agree, does it, Alan? I'm sorry that I've misunderstood you at points, so thank you for clarifying that. Naturally, I still disagree with your overall position, even though we are agree on the concept of tolerance. Our disagreement seems to be about the nature of tolerance and how that plays out in society. Naturally, I do not condone incitement to violence. Equally, I do not condone censorship of views which many people find offensive. And the state has consistently demonstrated itself to be incompetent at distinguishing these matters. Therefore, I would be sad and offended if someone stood up, as they regularly do, and say Evangelicals Christians are worthless idiots who should be denied basic freedoms (which, interestingly, they already are). But I do not believe the state should silence those people. Christopher Hitchens implied publicly that the Romans did not kill enough Christians, and that's why we have this sorry ugly religion called Christianity. That doesn't make me thing Hitchens should be corrected by the state. It just makes me think less of Hitchens who is interesting man and a talented writer.
At the end of the day, I feel that the some lobbyists want the state to require everyone to say out loud that homosexuality is wonderful, naturaly and to be encouraged. Many people will not say that, and regrettable as it seems to some, should not be forced to.
Thank you for taking the time for this e-discussion, Alan.
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